Josh: jesus wasn't a philosopher
NothingWitty00: You don't think so?
NothingWitty00: I think he was the greatest philosopher of them all
Josh: no
Josh: he didn't think
Josh: he just did as he was told
Josh: and there is nothing logical about his comands
Josh: it isn't philosophy at all
NothingWitty00: he spread philosophy
Josh: more like the oposit
NothingWitty00: Ah, but at the time there was no faith. He proved everything. So it was logical.
Josh: no, he didn't tell people to think, he told them to obey
NothingWitty00: Bullshit.
NothingWitty00: I call bullshit on you..
Josh: where does he say think for your self
NothingWitty00: I know he tells people to think. Because when you think, it leads to truth, and He is the Truth. I can't cite scripture, because I'm not that cool yet. But I'm sure he does.
NothingWitty00: Hojo and I just had a conversation about this.
Josh: no
Josh: he says to fallow him and god
Josh: no thinking required
Josh: in fact he says that small children, that don't have the ability to think and turn away, are better than adult
Josh: it wasn't logical or philisophical thought
Josh: it was thought based on faith
Josh: there is no philosophy in that
NothingWitty00: Yes there is.
Josh: and like you said there is no other choice
Josh: so the thought is not neccesary
NothingWitty00: Christianity is a philosophy man, its the only True philosophy, but it is one.
NothingWitty00: But you have to think to make the choice. Its free will. Otherwise, we just follow blindly and our love to God is meaningless.
Josh: no, we are supposed to fallow blindly
Josh: unfortionatly we can think and turn away
NothingWitty00: You sound like Courtney
Josh: that makes our love more "valuable" but it does cause us to sin
Josh: well she might actualy be right this time
NothingWitty00: You people make it sound like free will is a curse. Its the greatest gift He gave us.
Josh: i don't know, i havn't talked to her about it
Josh: he didn't want us to have it
Josh: he told us not to eat the fruit remember
NothingWitty00: We had free will before that,.
NothingWitty00: If we didn't, we couldn't have eaten the fruit against His will.
Josh: that gave us the knowledge of right and wrong, therefore we could think and sin
Josh: we were tricked into it
Josh: if you remember
NothingWitty00: He created us with free will, not with knowledge, but with free will
NothingWitty00: Now your saying there is someone that is capable of pulling the wool over God's eyes. We both know thats not true.
Josh: yes, but free will without knowledge isn't free will
Josh: no i am not
Josh: eve was not god
Josh: without knowing there is another option, you don't have the ability to choose it
NothingWitty00: There was another option.
NothingWitty00: God said "Don't eat it"
Josh: right
NothingWitty00: The serpent said "Eat it"
NothingWitty00: Thats a choice.
Josh: yes
Josh: but she had to be told about the option to eat it before she did
NothingWitty00: Sooo, God didn't give us free will, Satan did?
Josh: kind of
Josh: it is bad
NothingWitty00: horse shit.
Josh: whatever
Josh: read it again
NothingWitty00: I am!
NothingWitty00: As we speak.
Josh: it wasn't untill we had thought that we were kicked out of eden and such
Josh: so now you know i am right
Josh: if you want more proof you can look at what heven is like
Josh: we are all standing around worshiping endlessly
Josh: no other choices
Josh: that is the only picture of heaven we have from the bible
Josh: that is what god wants
NothingWitty00: Alright,
NothingWitty00: I just reread t.
NothingWitty00: it
Josh: unquestioned worship
Josh: sorry dude
Josh: it is true
NothingWitty00: No, listen.
NothingWitty00: First of all, the thing about Heaven is... thats all we'll want to do.
NothingWitty00: It doesn't say anything about us being forced like slaves... at least, not in anything I've read.
Josh: we are not forced as slaves
Josh: it is what we want to do
Josh: but we don't sit and contemplate it
NothingWitty00: Listen for a second.
Josh: we just do it, like small children looking at a tv
Josh: oooo, aaaaa
Josh: you know what i mean
Josh: ok, listening
NothingWitty00: First off, "the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made" Gen 3:1
NothingWitty00: God created the serpent, just as he did everything else...
Josh: ok
Josh: yes
NothingWitty00: Its widely recognized by biblical scholors, who are smarter then either one of us, that "the serpent" of the old testiment represents sin.
Josh: or satin
NothingWitty00: We agree that sin = satan then, right?
Josh: no
NothingWitty00: Well, my whole argument hinges on this idea.
Josh: ok
Josh: go on
NothingWitty00: So just go with me
NothingWitty00: Okay, so if sin is represented by the snake, then it was around before we had all the knowledge. So, we had free will.
NothingWitty00: He didn't want us to have the knowledge, but he did want us to have the choice.
Josh: right
Josh: but we were talking about thinking
NothingWitty00: he was just hoping we'd make the right one
Josh: which is the knowledte anyway
NothingWitty00: thinking IS choosing
Josh: no
NothingWitty00: You can think without knowledge, you'll just make the wrong choice.
Josh: i think a lot
Josh: i have a hard time choosing anything
Josh: i am bad with choices
Josh: you must have some knowledge to think
NothingWitty00: okay, sorry
NothingWitty00: choosing is thinking. But thinking isn't neccisarily choosing.
Josh: you can have false knowledge, like eve got from the snake, but you must have some
NothingWitty00: Well, we always had some knowledge. We knew that at least the grass was green and the water was cool, basic stuff like that.
NothingWitty00: We just didn't have what seperated us from the animals.
NothingWitty00: We had the knowledge of beasties pretty much.
Josh: we were seperate from the animals
NothingWitty00: Yes
Josh: we had the ability to choose
Josh: we just didn't have the knowledge to think or make the choice
NothingWitty00: Did you read my entry on "What Seperates Us From The Animals?"
Josh: yes
Josh: but i don't remember it
Josh: it was late
NothingWitty00: reread it, because I have a feeling its all going to tie into that
NothingWitty00: im rereading it now, just in case im wrong
Josh: i will reread it, but i think i already won
NothingWitty00: you didn't
Josh: yes i did
NothingWitty00: God gave us the ability to think on purpose.
NothingWitty00: it separates us... that is what separates us. The ability to think
Josh: i know
Josh: we were not supposed to eat the apple
Josh: if we wouldn't have done that we would be ok
NothingWitty00: No, but we were supposed to choose to not eat it.
Josh: and without the ability to think we wouldn't have done it
Josh: so thinking is the root of sin
Josh: eve thought it would be good, that is where she went wrong
NothingWitty00: Thinking is the root of sin. I can agree with that
NothingWitty00: But God created us with sing.
NothingWitty00: er, sin.
Josh: you know she thought about it because it gives the reasons she ate it: it was pleasing to the eye, it was good to eat, andit was desirable for gaining wisdom
Josh: no he didn't
Josh: there was no sin untill she ate the frut
NothingWitty00: he created us with the potential to sin
Josh: that is where sin entered the world
Josh: yes
NothingWitty00: by giving us the ability to think.
NothingWitty00: I said it was the greatest gift he gave us... but yeah, we abused it.
Josh: right, but not the knowledge to think,
Josh: it wasn't a great gift, it ruined paridise
Josh: that isn't a great gift
Josh: and he only gave us half of what it takes to think
Josh: you need the ability, and the knowledge
NothingWitty00: Yes it is... he created us in his image, because we were special, that entails a larger brain for thinking... making it a gift. We fucked it up, we ruined his gift, but thats our fault not his
Josh: we took the knowledge
Josh: that is my point
Josh: he doesn't want us to think
Josh: that is where we went wrong, and have been ever since
Josh: thankyou for proving me right
NothingWitty00: He does want us to think. He wants us to think correctly though.
NothingWitty00: It was just easier before we had the knowledge.
NothingWitty00: We took the knowledge, fucking it up.
Josh: but to think correctly we don't have to think at all, just fallow
NothingWitty00: but thats why we're special. We can't just follow, we have to think. Its why our love means so much
Josh: but we could
Josh: it wasn't his plan to have us this way
Josh: we could just fallow without thinking
Josh: that is the way he made us in the perfect garden
NothingWitty00: Even then, he gave us the ability to choose.
NothingWitty00: he gave us free will, right from the get go
Josh: only half that ability
Josh: we took the other half
Josh: and thought about it
Josh: that screwed us up
Josh: if she wouldn't have thought, and just said, no god doesn't want me to
Josh: we would be in eden right no
Josh: w
NothingWitty00: THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THINKING!
NothingWitty00: She took had the two options
Josh: no it would have been blindly fallowing
NothingWitty00: Blindly following would only be if there was no snake.
Josh: logic and thought told her to eat the frut
Josh: no
NothingWitty00: At that point, she had the two options, she just chose the right one.
Josh: you know when we would go up to whitney at school and ask questions to try and make her question her faith
Josh: instead of thinking she just said no and walked away
Josh: we were the snake and she was eve
Josh: blindly fallowing, not thinking about either option
NothingWitty00: Josh, you say "I hate you and I hope you die" to a kid. Of course, you don't kill him... because thats wrong. But, if I hand you a gun and say "Go for it man" you'd still say no, because its wrong. But you'd have to choose.
NothingWitty00: she chose not to listento us and follow GOd
NothingWitty00: she made the right choice
Josh: but she didn't think
Josh: she just fallowed
Josh: and telling someone i hate them and want them to die is as much sin as killing them
Josh: either way i sin
NothingWitty00: it was just a metaphor
Josh: i know
NothingWitty00: it still served its purpose
Josh: but it wasn't a very good one
Josh: no it didn't
Josh: either way i am thinking, because to tell someone i hate them i have to choose not to fallow god
Josh: if i just blindly fallow god, nomater what they do to me, i will love them
Josh: no thought required
Josh: just blind loyalty, like a small child to its parent
Josh: think about it this way
Josh: when you are a year old your parent is perfect
Josh: you do what they say because you love them
Josh: someone attacks them and you tell them they are dumb because your dad is the best right
Josh: that is what god wants
Josh: we are the kids and he is our dad
Josh: he wants us to do whatever he says becasue we love him
Josh: and he is the best
Josh: and he is never wrong
Josh: but thinking isn't required for this
Josh: just a relationship with him, and loyalty
NothingWitty00: when we are one year old we dont think like that...
Josh: we don't think at all
Josh: that is the point
NothingWitty00: Yes, but God didn't create us to be that way. he created us with the ability to think.
NothingWitty00: He created wombats that way
Josh: he did create us to be that way
Josh: we stold the ability to think
Josh: if a wombat would have eaten the frut then it would learn what is right and wrong and sin as well
NothingWitty00: wombats couldn't eat the fruit, they can't climb trees
Josh: right
Josh: is that you conceding
NothingWitty00: dude, that was a joke.
Josh: because i am tired
Josh: i know
NothingWitty00: No, I'm not conceding
Josh: but you lost
NothingWitty00: No I didn't
Josh: thought is bad
NothingWitty00: because he didn't give wombats the potential for knowledge, only us. Its part of what made us special
Josh: define philosophy for me realy quick
NothingWitty00: a system of beliefs and a specific way of thinking
Josh: right
Josh: jesus didn't come to give us a way of thinking
Josh: he came to give us a way of living
Josh: that is a religion
NothingWitty00: we have to think to live.
NothingWitty00: He gave us a correct way of living
Josh: that is the difference between philosophy and religion
Josh: we don't have to think to live
Josh: look at chris
NothingWitty00: hehe
Josh: he was not a philosopher because he never told people how to think, just how to live
NothingWitty00: But you have to think to live... it was implied.
Josh: you have to live to think
Josh: it doesn't work the other way around
NothingWitty00: yeah it does
Josh: we lived in eden before we thought
Josh: animals live without thinking
NothingWitty00: We thought in Eden!
NothingWitty00: Animals think
Josh: i thought that is what seperated us from animals, the ability to think
Josh: you said that
NothingWitty00: no no, higher thought seperates us from animals
NothingWitty00: the ability to choose
NothingWitty00: he gave that to us alone
Josh: i am tired
Josh: and bord of proving you wrong over and over
Josh: i am sorry that you are wrong on this
Josh: i know it is hard to accept
Josh: i love you and hope that you will come to terms with this one day
NothingWitty00: you havn't proved me wrong about anything
Josh: but tonight i am going to go to sleep
NothingWitty00: goodnight
Josh: talk to you later
NothingWitty00: talk to you later.
*** "Josh" signed off at Wed Jul 07 01:47:22 2004.

a few minutes later...

Becca: all this is proving is that god is an asshole.